I disagree, because what you mention is in my opinion the collaborative responsibility of both the composer, the book writer and the lyricist.



I think that is a good point, but mainly we are aware of what we are talking about here, so it's at times useful putting all ALW musicals under one label - particular when what we are talking about is ALW's ability to form the material in the musicals he collaborates on, regardless of who his collaborators are. But as you imply, it is necessary to be aware of what we are talking about.

If you say so... But I am very interested in knowing more about how, in waht way you find those songs amusing.



Definately. But it is still a collective responsibility.



I don't mean it should have conveyed a different theme, I think it should have explored the themes that are already there deeper with the means of music and lyrics. As it is, I don't think it goes any deeper, it just repeats what already is there.

I also don't think the themes in the movie to any noteworthy degree are treated as subjects of song. The superficial traits of the story is recreated through song, yes, but the underlying issues of fame and need for recognition are just left there.

"There's no accounting for taste" is a phrase that gets tossed around a lot in everyday discourse - and nowhere is this more true than when it comes to comedy, I think...

Millions of people flock to films starring Adam Sandler, but personally, I can't stand him. He's always struck me as being quite an irritating git, and not particularly funny.

I quite like Terry Gilliam films, but a lot of people (including members of my own family) have said that his brand of surreal, absurdist humour amounts to nothing more than "being weird for the sake of being weird".

Who knows why I find the comedy numbers from "Sunset Boulevard" amusing?

It could be because I am a film-buff as well as a musicals enthusiast, and I get a lot of the movie references that fly over the heads of some people... I remember listening to the recording with my brother once, he is not as into films as I am so I had to explain a few of the references to him. Or maybe it's because I've been a struggling actor myself and can relate to the sentiments expressed by the failed thesps in "This Time Next Year"?

Or maybe I like Joe's sardonic asides because I feel that there is at least some truth buried amidst his mountain of cynicism?

Maybe it's just because I'm partial to sarcasm myself? (yes, even though I have heard it said that sarcasm is the lowest kind of wit)

Trying to define what is humour is a bit like debating how many angels can dance on the end of a pin - it's totally subjective and you'll never get absolute agreement on it. I've seen the worst kind of flame wars erupt over this very subject...




Exactly. I agree. A collective responsibility.

Which is why people should at least mention the lyricists and librettists by name, instead of talking about Andrew Lloyd-Webber as though he is the be all and end all of a project.

Though again, Andrew Lloyd-Webber has done much to foster this phenomenon himself through his self-important statements in interviews.

It's just my view that all the genuinely interesting ALW musicals are interesting as much because he was working with interesting writers as because they had interesting scores.... whereas the bad/dull musicals he has done fail primarily because of bad lyrics and poor source material.
(though again, since splitting with Tim Rice, ALW has been the driving force in the choice of source material, so there is collective responsibility there)

Tim Rice had a certain dry British wit that acted as a neat foil to ALW's emotive music - and I'd say much the same thing about Christopher Hampton... one of the main reasons I like both "Sunset Boulevard" and "Evita" is the weird juxtaposition of bitingly cynical lyrics with lush romantic music. Even the big "diva ballads" from those two musicals come across as sadly ironic within the context of the story itself.






Again, there is no accounting for taste. You say that the songs should have explored the themes that are already there deeper... I feel that they did. You say that you don't feel the themes in the movie to any noteworthy degree are treated as subjects of song... I feel that they were.

Also, I feel that fame and the need for recognition are not the primary themes of the film - though they are an important part of it, to be sure - I think of "Sunset Boulevard" primarily as a fable of responsibility and the value of personal integrity.... but there you go, one of the reasons why I like "Sunset Boulevard" so much is that I think it can be interpreted in so many different ways, and that's one of the things that keeps me coming back to it again and again...

But such things could be debated for hours, the film has been the subject of many a student's thesis, I am sure... and again, I feel we'll probably never come to a consensus on this.



Getting back to the original topic, the problem for me in determining ALW's most satisfying score is that many of his bad shows contain truly transcendental moments..... I think nowhere is this more apparent than "Whistle Down The Wind", which contains some of both ALW and Jim Steinman's best work as songwriters, but which ultimately doesn't hold together very well as a musical. The whole is much less than it's (sometimes brilliant - ala "A Kiss Is A Terrible Thing To Waste") parts.

There are bits of "Aspects Of Love", "The Beautiful Game" and even "The Woman In White" which I think hint at a good musical being down there somewhere, struggling to get out.

Related to that, I can't think of a single ALW musical that does not contain at least one musical number that seems misjudged or cheezy in some way or which just gets on my nerves... even his good musicals have at least one of these. For instance, I find "Another Suitcase In Another Hall" to be such a blatant commercial for a chart-single that I can't take it seriously in the context of the otherwise fine "Evita". And again, I can't take "You Must Love Me" seriously since it's such blatantly obvious Oscar bait.

For the record, I'd say that I think "Joseph", "Superstar", "Evita", "Phantom" and "Sunset" are his only flat out good musicals.... "Whistle" I find both moving and entertaining, despite the fact that the intellectual part of my brain realises it is a bad musical.... "Aspects Of Love", "The Beautiful Game" and "The Woman In White" I also find oddly listenable despite the fact that I don't consider them to be very good. I guess I feel that there are enough of those odd transcendental moments to make them interesting.... "Starlight Express", "Love Never Dies", "Cats", "By Jeeves", "Song & Dance" just don't do it for me at all. Not in any way whatsoever.

I guess I'd say that "Sunset" is the most satisfying to me, but considering my general opinion of ALW's career, that is not saying a whole lot.

I'm not interested in agreeing or flame wars. I just like to know what and how other people think, regardless of how subjective the opinion is.




I'm perfectly willing to let myself persuade to agree if you give me some examples on how, in your opinion, the themes were explored deeper.



Aha, so this could have been chosen as the focus of the adaptation, too, why not? My point is, I can't really detect in what way ALW and his collaborators explored this aspect, either.

I hope I'm not setting myself up for flames here... I have a feeling that your idea of what constitutes "deeper" and my idea of what constitutes "deeper" could be entirely different things...

It strikes me that the character of Norma Desmond has been humanised just a tad for the musical... she is still a monster in oh-so many ways, but the musical does offer her more time for reflection and the melancholy at the root of her madness is laid bare more explicitly. I feel there are a few more layers to her character in the musical...

There are moments in "As If We Never Said Goodbye" and a few of her other solos that hint at Norma being as much in love with the filmmaking process as with the riches and fame that come with it... whereas in the film I got the impression it was primarily about the fame.

There are other bits where setting the scene to music got a much stronger "gut reaction" out of me than the equivalent scene in the film... the first one that comes to mind is Norma singing "Surrender" as she buries the chimp. In the film, it is kinda sad and blackly humourous at the same time that she's making such a big deal over this... but I feel the pathos and ridiculousness of the scene come across so much stronger in song, where the full extent of Norma's grief is spelt out.

There are so many scenes in "Sunset Boulevard" where Norma is making a song and dance about something trivial and meaningless - I kinda found these scenes more amusing in the musical because Norma is literally making a song and dance about it...

And hears where the ingenious use of lyrical disonance comes in - the characters are talking of things of no real import, though they themselves believe it to be of monumental significance.... so these songs have lyrics which send up the characters' pompousness, whilst the music seems to play along to the tune of their grand delusions... this is why I especially like the scene where Joe meets Norma for the first time and she starts pitching him her insane Bible-epic script. You say that the comedy in this musical is unfunny and dull, I thought that this scene, and the sequence of songs that run through it, are actually quite witty and amusing in the way that they skewer the characters' delusions, whilst at the same time still allowing a bit of pathos to seep through.

All these extra layers of irony that come from the musical approach to the scene do make it resonate strongly in my mind...

Does this count as being "depth"?

Maybe it doesn't, but if it doesn't then I would at least argue that "Sunset Boulevard" aims to have at least as much depth as it's source material. And even that level of ambition is quite unusual in a musical where ALW is involved... I was very surprised that "Sunset Boulevard" had as much depth as it did. Seeing as how ALW was involved, I had expected that the musical would have a schmaltzy happy ending tacked on, that there would be a lot more Joe/Betty scenes so that more poppish love ballads could be introduced and that the musical would have a much lighter tone overall than it does. None of these things happened. With "Sunset Boulevard" it seems that ALW / Hampton / Black all made a concious effort not to (deliberately) water down the bleakness of the material.

Certainly, there are no scenes in the musical where I feel the central theme of the scene has been betrayed or altered beyond recognition.

Again, this surprised me, considering how "Phantom Of The Opera", "Love Never Dies", "Whistle Down The Wind" and "The Woman In White" are so much more compromised and sentimentalized in their treatment of source material.

I think my first reaction on listening to the cast recording was relief that ALW & Co did not tack on a contrived happy ending, and I still consider it something of a minor miracle... I mean, can you imagine what would've happened if ALW had pulled a "Phantom" and kept Joe alive just so he could appear in some crappy sequel?

Maybe going into "Sunset" with such low expectations helped me enjoy it more? Who knows?

I should point out - I have not seen the show live.

I am basing my views upon my listening to the American Cast Recording (with Glenn Close) and the British Cast Recording (with Patti LuPone). Oh, and my having seen the film more times than I can count.

Maybe if I had seen "Sunset" live then I might share your low opinion of this musical. I heard that it was directed very badly and overproduced within an inch of it's life.

I've also heard it said that the various aged divas cast as Norma had all aged so badly that they couldn't cope with the vocal demands of singing the role live, night after night.

Many is the times when I have listened to a cast recording for a flop and thought that it must be brilliant, only to see the live version later and realise that as a musical it just doesn't work.

For instance, I used to really like "Notre Dame De Paris" - until I found out what the lyrics to each song actually meant and saw the way they'd staged it on the live DVD. Then I realised it just didn't hold together as a musical at all.

I think I disagree with you, because I think humanizing/sentimantalizing Norma blunts the satire (and I wonder if you contradict yourself when you claim that Norma is both more human/realistic and more over the top in the musical). I also think that satirizing boring dialogue by writing realistically boring dialogue is rather lame satire.

But more than anything it's interesting to learn what a fan of the show thinks of it. Thanks