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Mungojerrie_rt  Broadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Total posts: 2049 Location: Behind you...Boo! Primary role: Fan Current obsession: CATS, StEx, Tanz Der Vampire, Into The Woods, |
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| Beagle On Stage wrote: | | Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | Although I suddenly have this image of the Phantom's lair under a blacklight. Just his mask and Christine's nightie glowing out in the gloom.  |
See, wouldn't that be hardcore?
Although I would choose to have Christine wearing a white culotte and camisole ensemble instead of the traditional nightie. Just to be a little sexier.  |
A nightie is more realistic though. Anna Marina spent the entire time bursting out the top of her Think of Me corset under the nightie anyway.
I'm thinking about the Chandelier. The story requires it to drop, but the full thing would be out of place. If it is a small theatre, not even seeing the chandelier might work. The drop could be a flash and blackout or something with some screaming.
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| mezzo_soprano Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Total posts: 1689 Primary role: Performer Current obsession: Beauty and the Beast! |
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| Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | Beagle On Stage wrote: | | Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | Although I suddenly have this image of the Phantom's lair under a blacklight. Just his mask and Christine's nightie glowing out in the gloom. |
See, wouldn't that be hardcore?
Although I would choose to have Christine wearing a white culotte and camisole ensemble instead of the traditional nightie. Just to be a little sexier. |
A nightie is more realistic though. Anna Marina spent the entire time bursting out the top of her Think of Me corset under the nightie anyway.
I'm thinking about the Chandelier. The story requires it to drop, but the full thing would be out of place. If it is a small theatre, not even seeing the chandelier might work. The drop could be a flash and blackout or something with some screaming. |
I really like that idea!
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DvargBroadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 18 Apr 2002 Total posts: 3652 Location: Norway Primary role: Fan Current obsession: Sondheim! |
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| Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | At least the movies of [My Fair Lady and The King And I] are light entertainment. My Fair Lady is even listed as comedy in the TV guide. |
Well, as I said:
| Dvarg wrote: | | But the comedy and the music are parts of the serious themes. They aren't separate things. Comedy doesn't neccessarily mean not serious. |
| Quique wrote: | | So far what I'm getting from this thread is [...] E.) The American musical is light comedy fluff because T.V. Guide says so.[/color] |
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Mungojerrie_rtBroadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Total posts: 2049 Location: Behind you...Boo! Primary role: Fan Current obsession: CATS, StEx, Tanz Der Vampire, Into The Woods, |
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| Dvarg wrote: | | Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | At least the movies of [My Fair Lady and The King And I] are light entertainment. My Fair Lady is even listed as comedy in the TV guide. |
Well, as I said:
| Dvarg wrote: | | But the comedy and the music are parts of the serious themes. They aren't separate things. Comedy doesn't neccessarily mean not serious. |
| Quique wrote: | | So far what I'm getting from this thread is [...] E.) The American musical is light comedy fluff because T.V. Guide says so.[/color] |
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As I said; The themes are the same, delivered in a different style. The TV guide comment was sarcasm.
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DvargBroadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 18 Apr 2002 Total posts: 3652 Location: Norway Primary role: Fan Current obsession: Sondheim! |
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| Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | As I said; The themes are the same, delivered in a different style. The TV guide comment was sarcasm. |
We agree, then, that this Michael Kunze is a dork?
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"You all are f***ing crazy, except Dvarg, who is actually quite smart" - Jennyanydots |
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Mungojerrie_rtBroadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Total posts: 2049 Location: Behind you...Boo! Primary role: Fan Current obsession: CATS, StEx, Tanz Der Vampire, Into The Woods, |
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| Dvarg wrote: | | Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | As I said; The themes are the same, delivered in a different style. The TV guide comment was sarcasm. |
We agree, then, that this Michael Kunze is a dork? |
No, I think he's right, there is a general difference in styles. There are always exceptions to anything though.
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DvargBroadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 18 Apr 2002 Total posts: 3652 Location: Norway Primary role: Fan Current obsession: Sondheim! |
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| Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | No, I think he's right, there is a general difference in styles. |
Can you please take a look at what the man is saying about the European musical versus the Broadway tradition?
| Michael Kunze wrote: | | The music is a very important element, but the most important element of the drama is the story, so the music really serves the story, and the music doesn't really have a right in its own beside the story, like a number that is just made for the music and the dance [as opposed to the Broadway musical]. |
It’s a fact that this was developed by Hammerstein with the writing of Show Boat and perfected in Oklahoma!. All subsequent good musicals in the Rodgers/Hammerstein tradition follow this principle. This includes the likes of South Pacific, Annie Get Your Gun, Kiss Me Kate, My Fair Lady, Camelot, Fiddler On The Roof, Cabaret, A Chorus Line as well as all Sondheim musicals.
Michael Kunze’s suggestion that his principle is different from the Broadway one is wrong.
And these examples aren't exceptions to the rule, fyi. These are the best and most representatiove examples of the Broadway tradition.
| Michael Kunze wrote: | | I just want to distinguish where theatre is more theatrical than in a classical Broadway musical which is based on […] spectacular things happening, and this is not what I look for. I believe in drama as the key entertainment in theatre, and I think I'm not the only one who does. |
The Broadway musicals like Carousel, the King And I, Allegro, My Fair Lady, Fiorello, Porgy And Bess, A Chorus Line, Cabaret, Company, A Little Night Music, Pacific Overtures, Falsettos and Passion based on spectacular things happening and NOT drama?
Again, Michael Kunze, you have obviously no idea what you are talking about.
| Michael Kunze wrote: | | I think that also our audiences in Europe, and I really include here in England, are more interested in going to theatre and have a real theatrical experience, a real emotional experience at last, not just an entertaining evening, but something they can discuss after the show [as opposed to the Broadway audience]. |
Oh, really? Carousel, Cabaret and Assassins give you nothing to talk about and no real emotional experience, but Miss Saigon, Martin Guerre and The Woman In White do?
Give me a break. This is just insulting.
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"You all are f***ing crazy, except Dvarg, who is actually quite smart" - Jennyanydots |
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Disney-Bway27Broadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 15 Aug 2008 Total posts: 5509 Location: The Old Red Hills of Home Primary role: Performer Current obsession: Titanic, Ragtime |
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Uhh...what Dvarg said.
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RainbowJudeBroadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 14 May 2003 Total posts: 2405 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Primary role: Director Current obsession: Mostly preoccupied with trying to wrap my head around ELISABETH at the moment. |
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This is a pretty long thread, but I'm starting at the top and working my way through. Reading through this article leaves me completely unsure as to whether Michael Kunze is speaking from a position of ignorance or self-importance. He doesn't seem to be aware of the complete context of the musical theatre tradition by any means, his argument is contradictory and his choice of examples to justify his points is simply inadequate. In fact, his arguments and examples seem to offer a viewpoint that is almost the complete opposite of what he is saying about "dramamusicals" when taking into account the parts of musical theatre history he seems to conveniently exclude in his responses. I've worked through each of his points on my blog, so I'm not going to reproduce that all here although I certainly might use some of it later in response to other comments on this article.
| Brother Marvin Hinten, S. wrote: | | In other words, Europe traditionally favors darker stories, more intellectual and thought-provoking entertainment, and by comparison Broadway is... less so inclined... This is not to say that either haven't ever gone the total opposite direction, but basically yeah, that's how it rolls. |
That's not "how it rolls" at all, not unless you're going to exclude every serious American musical from Show Boat onwards. Certainly, the idea of musical comedy from which Kunze seeks to move away is almost synonymous with the definition of musical theatre until the 1940s. At that time, American musicals - with a few notable exceptions - prized entertainment over enlightenment. But with Oklahoma! popularizing the ideals of what we refer to most commonly as the musical play, a form of American musical theatre in which music was most certainly in the service of the drama was born and became the dominant form within the genre for the next quarter of a century. The same goes for the various forms of what we refer to as the concept musical, in which the music is related most clearly to the ideas that are being communicated in the show from the very moment of its inception. Furthermore, even if we look at musical comedies that have appeared after the Rodgers and Hammerstein revolution, most are far more integrated than their counterparts in the 1920s and 1930s. So there are most certainly numerous examples of 'darker stories' (Marie Christine, Carousel, Sweeney Todd) and musicals that are 'intellectual and thought-provoking' (Assassins, Follies, South Pacific), and these are not the exceptions to the rule. To rule these shows out as a vital and central part of American musical theatre either reflects a blatant or willful ignorance on the part of the part of the person who's putting forward an argument regarding musicals, in this case Michael Kunze and what he refers to as his "dramamusicals".
Later days
David
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MistressBroadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Total posts: 2461 Location: If you care to find me, look to the western sky...or just look in Toronto Primary role: Fan Current obsession: Elisabeth das Musical and Rebecca das Musical XD |
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I read on your blog that you're taking a look at some of his shows. I don't know if it was serious, but regardless, I just wanted to wish you luck and I truly hope you like them, especially Elisbaeth as it's a favourite my mine. I'm not sure if any of them will be to your taste, but's it good to know that you'll give them a try 
If you're intrested, there are a bunch of threads for his shows in the Other Show section. If you have any questions, asks us, we'll probably know the answer like good little nerds XD
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DvargBroadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 18 Apr 2002 Total posts: 3652 Location: Norway Primary role: Fan Current obsession: Sondheim! |
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| Mistress wrote: | | If you have any questions, asks us, we'll probably know the answer like good little nerds XD |
I have never heard any musicals of Michael Kunze's. What do you fans of his think of this interview?
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"You all are f***ing crazy, except Dvarg, who is actually quite smart" - Jennyanydots |
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MistressBroadway Legend / MdN Veteran
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 Total posts: 2461 Location: If you care to find me, look to the western sky...or just look in Toronto Primary role: Fan Current obsession: Elisabeth das Musical and Rebecca das Musical XD |
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Personally, I originally liked it well enough, but you bring up very good points. I'd hate to think Kuntze's is being a pompous ass though. I think he's just maybe generalizing too much, a mistake evreyone makes once in a while.
However, if you see any of his works, they are very drama heavy as opposed to a lot of Broadway works that deal in serious topics but do so in a lighter manner, a la King and I or Oklahoma. They have their seriousness, but there's still lots of fun singing and dancing so to speak. Not so if you look at the likes of Elisabeth or Rebecca (mostly-Rebecca does have "I'm an American Woman" which is lighter fodder in another wise very dramatic show). It's almost all drama and angst or very dark humour. Not that I think one is better than the other, or that one is exclusive to one area and the other exclusive to another. Broadway has plenty of drama and angst, just as Europe has plenty of fun and fluff (I mean good fluff).
I think if Kuntze had written King and I, for example, it would have been a lot more serious, darker even, like the the Foster/Fat Anna and the King film, if you've seen it. I think maybe that was what he was trying to say, although he didn't say it well, I guess.
Do I make sense?
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