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Why do ppl dislike ALW, call him a hack, etc, etc, etc 
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Barberous wrote:
The song gives a voice to all the people Eva stepped on on the way to the top, IMO.


At first sight, this seems a weak interpretation to me. Can you give some example of text or music that supports it?

Is the mistress a symbolic representant of the Argentine people? Is the point that Peron abused the people, then dumped them for Eva? I don't quite get the parallel... :|

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Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:42 am
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I guess the connection is kind of vague, but somehow it worked for me. I wasn't thinking of a very close parallel in terms of Peron's treatment of the people. But I did like the way the show's writers stepped away from the study of Eva and Peron (ha, I wrote 'Evon' at first...) for a moment, and had a closer look at somebody that suffered at their hands. You do see that with Che and with Eva's rejected lovers, but it's more cynical or funny or exposition-y with them. With the mistress' song, while it is a bit "WTF? This show is meant to be about Eva and Peron", it does encourage the audience to be seriously sympathetic for one of the people subject to their power. The fact that she's an unimportant, incidental character could almost be the point... to Eva and Peron she's unimportant and incidental to their lives and ambitions, like so many others, and in this show there could be a risk of the audience going into that mindset as well (not that audiences are heartless, but it can be easy to forget about the victims for the sake of a good 'villain' story, a la much of Sweeney Todd).


Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:21 pm
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Nicola wrote:
He also composes pieces randomly, and then decides, perhaps ten or twenty years on, that one of these pieces could fit into the new musical he is planning. He therefore is not composing according to the musicals theme.


How does that follow? Would you say the same for Rossini and Donizetti who frequently used material they had written for earlier projects? Of course he's composing according to the musical's theme. If he uses a piece of music he wrote previously it is because he has found a moment in the drama where that theme really works. Incorporating it is part of the compositional process and it has to be integrated with the rest of the score.

Nicola wrote:
I do think that he is a better song writer than a composer. And by that I mean he can write some great outstanding tracks, but when he writes a whole score, the quality goes down somewhat.


I disagree and I think this argument is based on a fundamental lack of understanding of his work (which is shared by the majority of the musicals.net posters). He is the composer who writes scores in the true sense, that is, properly integrated scores that don't merely sound like a collection of songs strung together or a hodge-podge of musical themes and ideas lacking a cohesive structure, e.g. Les Miserables. His musicals contain more instrumental work and subtle underscoring than those of his contemporaries, many of whom write musicals that sound like they could have been composed in the 1940s.

Nicola wrote:
I think ALW has many critics simply because he is popular. I'm not saying there is nothing to criticise, because they're certainly is, but when musicals such as ALW's gets so much exposure, there is certain to be more critics along with the fans.


Actually, critical reaction is usually mixed. It's true that you get a certain group of critics who hate everything he does, e.g. Frank Rich, but he does get favourable reviews as well. Usually it's split down the centre but the critics who are anti tend to be very hostile.

Nicola wrote:
Also, most things that are popular do tend to have a lack of sophistication so it can reach the biggest general audience as possible.


It is true that a lot of things that are popular lack sophistication but that is not true of Andrew Lloyd Webber's work.

Nicola wrote:
I don't know much about the technical side of musicals, or music in general to know what the sophistication could be, but I tend to trust those that do know what they're talking about.


That's a mistake. It's what you call an appeal to authority.


Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:23 pm
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MusicFan wrote:
If he uses a piece of music he wrote previously it is because he has found a moment in the drama where that theme really works. Incorporating it is part of the compositional process and it has to be integrated with the rest of the score.


What is strange, is that he so often seems to find the same melody work in totally different scores, like English Girls/Tiretracks And Broken Hearts etc, and integrates the same tune in different shows.

MusicFan wrote:
I think this argument is based on a fundamental lack of understanding of his work (which is shared by the majority of the musicals.net posters). He is the composer who writes scores in the true sense, that is, properly integrated scores that don't merely sound like a collection of songs strung together or a hodge-podge of musical themes and ideas lacking a cohesive structure, e.g. Les Miserables. His musicals contain more instrumental work and subtle underscoring than those of his contemporaries, many of whom write musicals that sound like they could have been composed in the 1940s.


Can you elaborate? What and who are you referring to? I'm only curious, as I cannot claim I have extensive musical education.

MusicFan wrote:
Nicola wrote:
I don't know much about the technical side of musicals, or music in general to know what the sophistication could be, but I tend to trust those that do know what they're talking about.
That's a mistake. It's what you call an appeal to authority.


What's wrong with wanting to learn from those with more experience and knowledge than you?

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Last edited by Hans on Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:54 am
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Dvarg wrote:
What's wrong with wanting to learn from those with more experience and knowledge than you?


That's not the same thing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority


Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:16 am
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I feel that his Jesus Christ Superstar is fabulous, and Evita is one of my favorite musicals! But the more he write, the worse it seems to get. I love the entire score of Jesus Christ Superstar and Evita, but when we go further into the present he looses his "scores" it seems, like said above, that Webber just make some fair songs and try to power them up with one hit, like in Phantom of the Opera he wrote the theme song and All I Ask of You, and that was the only thing that made the music interesting to me, then you have Sunset Boulevard where the theme song and Girl Meets Boy are descent. I feel that he is not evolving, it is kind of like the "Schönberg syndrome" he starts off brilliantly, than devolve from score to score. It is a pity, because we could really use some new descent all-sung-through musicals!


Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:55 am
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Dvarg wrote:
MusicFan wrote:
I think this argument is based on a fundamental lack of understanding of his work (which is shared by the majority of the musicals.net posters). He is the composer who writes scores in the true sense, that is, properly integrated scores that don't merely sound like a collection of songs strung together or a hodge-podge of musical themes and ideas lacking a cohesive structure, e.g. Les Miserables. His musicals contain more instrumental work and subtle underscoring than those of his contemporaries, many of whom write musicals that sound like they could have been composed in the 1940s.


Can you elaborate? What and who are you referring to?


Ehem..?

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Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:08 am
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MusicFan, what is wrong with musicals written before the 1940s? Or.. what is wrong with the style?

And what exactly is wrong with Les Miserables? How can you claim it lacks a cohesive structure and a hodge-podge of musical themes? Have you ever taken the time to actually listen to the score?

And you don't seem to know ALW's music history very well do you? ALW's musicals are almost always collections of random music that he wrote at different times, and then just decided to stick into the show. That's not even a matter of opinion. If you look at when he writes certain songs, or when he starts writing certain songs, it's usually long before the musical is even conceived. And I don't believe you can claim that the majority of the posters here on musicals.net lack the fundamental understanding of his work just because they disagree with you, considering you don't even know the majority of posters here, the success they have in theatre, and their standing in the eyes of respected members of the Broadway or West End community. I, for one, think that you lack the fundamental understanding of the works of Gershwin, L&L, and Porter, and they have done more for musical theatre than what Andrew Lloyd Webber can claim.


Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:36 am
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MusicFan wrote:
Dvarg wrote:
What's wrong with wanting to learn from those with more experience and knowledge than you?


That's not the same thing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority


I'm aware of that fallacy (one of my degree modules was based around logical fallacies, and I received a first in it), but my awareness does not change my opinion. Even a critics opinion does not change my own. I don't put much stock in it, to be honest. I believe if that so many experts are saying the same thing, then they can't just be making it up, and I trust them to an extent. This does not, however, effect my enjoyment of anything. I know ALW is looked down upon, I have always known that, but I still enjoy the majority of his shows. It's not my business to know whether they are good or not. I'm just a viewer, a listener, a customer. I'm no critic, I'm no social commentator. All that matters to me is if I enjoy the musical or not, regardless of how experts view that particular musical. Do I believe that ALW has reason to be criticised? Yes, I do. Does it affect how I listen to his work and enjoy it? No.

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Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:34 am
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Can I just say that I have so far enjoyed reading your posts, Nicola? That's all.

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Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:42 pm
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Aww. Thanks, Mazz. :)

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Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:00 am
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mastachen wrote:
MusicFan, what is wrong with musicals written before the 1940s? Or.. what is wrong with the style?


I didn't say there was anything wrong with musicals written in the 1940s. However, composers who can't seem to write anything original, who just hark back to an earlier age are rather limited IMO

mastachen wrote:
And what exactly is wrong with Les Miserables? How can you claim it lacks a cohesive structure and a hodge-podge of musical themes? Have you ever taken the time to actually listen to the score?


Indeed I have, and that is what my opinion is based on, the score.

mastachen wrote:
And you don't seem to know ALW's music history very well do you? ALW's musicals are almost always collections of random music that he wrote at different times, and then just decided to stick into the show. That's not even a matter of opinion. If you look at when he writes certain songs, or when he starts writing certain songs, it's usually long before the musical is even conceived.


So what? There are many composers of opera who have done precisely the same thing. I would only be critical of this practice if I felt the piece of music used was inappropriate, which I don't. In any case, most composers are formulating musical ideas all the time, even when they are not working on a project.

mastachen wrote:
And I don't believe you can claim that the majority of the posters here on musicals.net lack the fundamental understanding of his work just because they disagree with you


I based this judgement on the posts themselves, not on the people, and I do think the posts betray a lack of understanding of his work.

mastachen wrote:
considering you don't even know the majority of posters here, the success they have in theatre, and their standing in the eyes of respected members of the Broadway or West End community.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_by_authority

mastachen wrote:
I, for one, think that you lack the fundamental understanding of the works of Gershwin, L&L, and Porter, and they have done more for musical theatre than what Andrew Lloyd Webber can claim.


And what are you basing that on? I haven't even talked about the composers you mention so how could you possibly know what understanding I have of those composers.


Last edited by MusicFan on Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:29 am
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